I Need Help Growing SXN80

Started by Slyk, Dec 13, 2019, in Announcements Add to Reading List

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  1. Michael Myers
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    Michael Myers Moderator

    Jan 20, 2020
    Ur right, but tbh the main thread is so crowded rn I personally think its fine to have some extra threads for news regarding the album. To be fair one is for sales the other 'prediction' thread btw.

    If its up to me tho, as soon as the album hype is gone a little we go back to having one big 'murder' thread and merge them all -especially when the same is discussed in 4 different threads-
     
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  2. 1999
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    Jan 20, 2020
    Because the admins ran the site like idiots when they wouldn’t ban the shitposters. Why stay when they have discord and KTT?
     
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  3. Boos
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    Boos Nova Nation

    Jan 20, 2020
    Yea I’m all for the temporary sections when big albums drop. My complaint is more so on the side of when there’s no news on new music for months but random threads trying to find every time his lyrics were censored or some random s--- that could easily be in a chat thread for the artist
     
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  4. nogger
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    nogger Best Poster Alive

    Jan 21, 2020
    Ya'll need me.
     
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  5. Michael Myers
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    Michael Myers Moderator

    Jan 21, 2020
    g.d. how u been man
     
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  6. Michael Myers
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    Michael Myers Moderator

    Jan 21, 2020
    I actually think it is / was a good idea having a temp section for situations like this (as in the past for certain artists that didn't have one already) and merge them all into 1 or 2 threads after the sxn is gone, not sure if that possible the way its set up now, @Slyk ?

    Also lots of eminem threads have been merged a while back into 'main' threads and an eminem chat thread but I think it was @Koolo that said it hurt the site with google search somehow?
     
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  7. Oldboy
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    Oldboy Administrator

    Jan 21, 2020
    Nooooggggg
     
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  8. Zeugma
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    Zeugma thugger thugger my brother

    Jan 21, 2020
    did we just summon nogger?
    Will you stay a little @nogger ?
     
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  9. Slyk
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    Slyk God made a prophet.

    Jan 21, 2020
    i didn't think it would work, but i said "nogger" 3 times in the mirror last night and poof, the legend has returned
    :breakdance:
     
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  10. Slyk
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    Slyk God made a prophet.

    Jan 21, 2020
    i mean... we just consolidated the music sxn m8.
     
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  11. Reed Richards
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    Jan 21, 2020
    If we could find a nut up 2 snippet that might buy us another 8 years
     
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  12. Michael Myers
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    Michael Myers Moderator

    Jan 21, 2020
    I know thats why I asked u haha. Not sure if, without bringing artist sections back, its possible to just have temp sections for occassions like this.
     
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  13. Nay Nay
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    Nay Nay naynaymusic.com

    Jan 26, 2020
    @Slyk any update?
     
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  14. Slyk
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    Slyk God made a prophet.

    Jan 27, 2020
    it's responsive, but one actually does exist. once you hit tablet/ipad-level resolutions, the spacer appears. was too cluttered and unnecessary on larger displays..visual eye sore & generally just unneeded

    i'm not opposed to adding the views back in, but imo it's a "nice to have" and for sake of simplicity (more on this in a sec), cleanliness, etc., it was eliminated. been taking a look at the visuals and if i added it back in, then it would strictly be on desktop, since it's just not crucial enough to try to cram into a mobile view. the problem here is that 70% of traffic here is mobile these days + it would introduce an inconsistence across the platforms. again, not against it, but i think it might be small potatoes and *likely* not a very large factor in the equation of things.

    regarding the overall look, i tend to disagree here. preference thing i think, but it's consistent with the rest of the theme, cleaner, etc. probably not a sticking point if i'm guessing correctly., (save for, maybe the views piece)

    regarding the nice to haves/simplicities, it's interesting hearing that people want more to be shown, but then there's also an echoing across the room that people want to trim even more of the fat and to really dumb things down because there's ~"too many options/details" right now...this feeds into the biggest struggle of trying to make everyone happy -- which simply won't ever happen.
    [/quote]

    fair criticism. i went back and forth on it and ultimately landed with where it's at rn due to the fact that it's consistent with the rest of the style/theme -- reply blue box, pagination, pop-up buttons, thread create, etc.,etc., are all solid blue with white writing. it may be less prevalent if changing to the outline, but it'd be tbd on if that'd be a good or bad thing, or just trivial...one thing's for sure is that it would be inconsistent with the rest of the aesthetics, and again, i think this is a pretty small thing.


    appreciate the detail and the recap of others' opinions here.. it's certainly been the biggest qualm, and obviously hasn't fallen on deaf ears. i'm probably a broken record at this point, but i still very strongly believe that the new 3.0 view does a couple things better than 2.0, or the "stale" standard view will ever do:
    1.) gives a wayyyy larger view of the activity on the forum, with more detail and ease of access
    2.) is actually easier to jump to the different sxns (which then remains consistent with the thread & sxn views where the navigation is in a consolidated view up top, without the need to jump back to the homepage just to visit a different sxn)

    that said, i get that the concept didn't catch on (to *most* -- i think it's important to note that there's been many who have said that they love the 3.0 homepage/feed view better than 2.0; the negative comments are often louder than the positive ones in these cases, but i acknowledge that that's not entirely the case here and that it is, in fact, the majority).

    I've been playing with the code and believe i could *give the option* to revert back to the 2.0 view on the homepage. The cost would come at losing one of the 2 feed options in place already today (there's 2 options rn -- 1.) show all recent posts/threads, 2.) only show unread new posts/threads)...we would lose one of those 2 due to developmental complications in the framework which is out of my hands/capabilities, tbh. it would be the latter of the 2 that would be lost, which is unfortunate, as i think that is the one that people liked most out of the 2 existing options today.

    @Evad says he has some conceptual things he'd like to put together as a mockup and send my way to overhaul the homepage even further... i'd like to take a look at what he's got to show before going down the route of giving the option for folks to revert to the old view (at the expense of losing another one). even if not doing a full overhaul and having the option to "revert" the homepage to 2.0, then this would be a large undertaking...and be really friggin awkward, especially on mobile. think: the hamburger menu would need to go away if opting into the old version (...or woudl it? because it'd still be great to be able to jump to the different sxns from outside of the homepage...but having redundant sxn views on the homepage would be pretty terrible from a UX perspective...and having a hamburger menu on all pages but the homepage would just be really weird), the horizontal navigation bar would need to conditionally be removed as well (again... from just the homepage, because it does make sense to have a quick jump to the other sxns up top without needing to go back to the homepage to do so), etc... lots to consider because it's not just a simple swap out, because that just introduces so many more obstacles and things to think about as well without making this place look like it was inexperiencely designed.


    with the recent music sxn consolidation, the scrolling really doesn't even come into play tbh. since we no longer have too many categories and content that we cover, by the time a scroll is needed, the responsive view kicks into place and they're in the hamburger menu...the scroll could be entirely removed today and HoF would be the only thing that would be cut off at the very smallest point of the responsive view.

    saying that the one click will not deter people from using the site kinda defeats even calling out the navigation piece to begin with tbh. i would be shocked if having a very small real-estate worth of navigation on the top of the page is detering people from using the site either. especially since 70% of traffic is mobile, and that goes away entirely (minus that tiny hamburger box) on mobile. i truly think this is implemented correctly (now, at least, since there's no longer a need to scroll horixontally ever), and it's so negligible outside of that (size-wise + usage-wise).

    historical background: the concept here is that you can order the sxns in direction from most-used to least-used, so to begin with, even with more sxns, the idea was to put the power in the user's hands so they would be able to contour it to their desire. there was a lot of feedback asking for this in the 2.0 view (being able to move things around and whatnot), so that was part of the inspiration here. if i didn't give a s--- about the Eminem SXN, then i could remove it from my navigation entirely, or just order it to the very end... i honestly think that this was somehow too complex for our users to understand how to setup, despite it being so simple (click once and forget). can't dumb down everything.


    - overall: the sidebar has a use and i 100% disagree with you that it should be removed entirely. this isn't unique here -- d--- near every forum, social media platform, etc., uses a sidebar and it's because it's very effecftive and necessary. it's out of the way enough as to where you can ignore it entirely if you truly want to. you wouldn't gain anything from not seeing it -- it would just be a ton of added white space. pretty hard stance on this one.
    - SXN info: agreed 100%
    - 50/50 on the quick filtering/following piece. it's up top on mobile (though, cluttered due to the SXN info unneeded piece acknowledged above); on desktop, it makes sense -- it's not something you would want to see up top front and center every time you go into the sxn or a thread in the sxn. it's a click-once and be done thing for most people, so it shouldn't be a repetitive thing you see directly up top every time you load a new post/page. that said, i think there's room for improvement here to expand it to show other, non-featured, artists and mention groups.
    - homepage sidebar:
    featured content = i'm not happy about it either. tbph, i advocated hard to keep the option to have the featured thread view as well (or to be swapped out/remoevd/whatever) in addition to the album featured view. koolo was the one in discussions with the 3rd party developer on that and it didn't happen...it would have if i was the only voice and it's unfortunatley not somethign i can change myself and the developer is a piece of s---. tbph, i'm a little bitter on this one.
    latest posts/hottest threads = this is somewhat counterintuitive/opposing to your other comment about a sidebar not being necessary. advocating for a sidebar because it is effective here to show latest posts is different than what i was interpreting from your previous segment. i agree though -- it is effective. the rest of this i think cirlces back to wanting the old/non-feed view up-front and center (and this again, only further complicates things if i were to make changes, because now people are going to want the latest posts things on the homepage sidebar if they don't have the feed up-front and center, so i'd need to conditionally put the latest posts in the sidebar if the user opts to revert the view....you feel my struggle? i'm not ruling it out, but things would be sooo fragmented and it's not just a simple flip of a switch to accomplish like people think it would be...you give a mouse a cookie and it's going to ask for a glass of milk.). one other thing to consider here: featured content, status updates (more here below on this), & latest posts on the rightside homepage sidebar would be a LOT of content. secondary consideration with this: it wouldn't be visible on mobile unless placed at the very bottom...which i personally hate from a UX standpoint and always thought it was a terrible view/experience having to scroll down past the sxns just to see the content. maybe that's just a personal preference thing, but i kinda squeem when i think about putting that back into place.
    status updates = i agree with you... why do we need status updates? they can be fun, but at the same time, are they necessary enough as to where they need to be prevelant on the front page? logical answer: no. illogical answer: yes, because it's always been there since SL (i think?)...there would be an outcry if they were removed and i honeslty just don't want to deal with that because the rest of the homepage "Revert!" stuff has been a big enough of a headach without introducing the removal of something that is "stale" and a standard here, that people just seem to like..

    this is silly to bring up. please don't hold onto this. 1.) way out of my control and core xenforo code would need to be altered to make this work + the add-on; 2.) 1 extra click here for when it's rarely used shouldn't be detrimental enough to even be on the radar in the grand scheme of things...if clicking to go back to the homepage just to go into another sxn is rationalized/desired, then this is peanuts.
     
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  15. Slyk
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    Slyk God made a prophet.

    Jan 27, 2020
    ...to cut down on some of the above and hit ya with a quick recap, @Nay Nay , i appreciate a ton of the detail that went into your post, but tbph, a lot of it is small potatoes and person preferences that i hope you can appreciate it when i say that i could/would hear the opposite of if implementing and would drive me to insanity with the circling of desires. the bigger pieces/takeaways that i do agree with and will/am/have been taking into consideration are:

    1.) homepage view
    2.) possibly adding thread views back in on desktop sxn view
    3.) sxn info removal / cleaining up the visuals of quick follows

    the larger pieces i disagree with:
    1.) removal of sidebar
    2.) removal of sxn navigation up top outside of homepage view


    hope my above didn't come across as totally dismissive, but def wanted to show where my foot is/isn't down on.
     
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  16. Slyk
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    Slyk God made a prophet.

    Jan 27, 2020
    while i'm in here today, i wanted to touch on:


    forums are dying

    short answer is: i'd like to see some real statistics, but bottom line is that our forum is dying. i know that ktt was doing piss poor prior to it re-launching ktt2, though, i have no idea what their new activity is like compared to their glory days of a couple years ago. if i had to guess, i'd say that you're all correct...reddit/fb/twitter/etc have capitalized on a large share of the forum "market". that doesn't mean that there isn't a need for forums though, and tbph, forums offer a fare more contoured experience for their core purpose. they develop communities (see: us...many of us have been chatting for over a decade...s---, for like 15 years now), and those other platforms haven't been able to capture that experience yet imo.

    the trick here (which, i have no idea on how to perform) is to make the masses know that there's more out there than just the reddits and that there is actual benefit to joining a proper community. tbph, this is a problem that's like 50 levels above my capabilities, but s---, i'm totally open to thoughts on how to put an emphasis into the internetsphere of why forums are a better choice for discussion.
     
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  17. Slyk
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    Slyk God made a prophet.

    Jan 27, 2020
    categories of posts itt:

    - homepage
    - overall design

    - dislikes / likes system
    - eminem
    - forums are dying
    - plus / vets / rewards system
    - alerts system
    - rebranding
    - misc

    ...more to touch on and then will recap somethings afterwards..i know this is slow moving and then there's gonna have to be action plans thereafter, but there's been a lot of really solid ongoing brainstorming here.
     
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  18. Nay Nay
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    Nay Nay naynaymusic.com

    Jan 28, 2020
    Noted. Just to be clear, every single suggestion I made was in relation to the desktop display of the site (though I'm sure a lot of them could be cross-referenced for both mobile and desktop view). You posted screenshots of the desktop view for comparison in your original post, so that is what I made my comparisons and recommendations of.
    Your rebuttals seem to switch back and forth between the two versions to whatever best supports your argument. I was not aware the spacers appeared on mobile versions of the site because I was only looking at the comparisons you posted screenshots of. With that being said, it looks fine on mobile with the spacers, good job there. With the desktop display it is inconsistent like I said, and not a visual eyesore at all, it helps things appear slightly more organized. It doesn't make sense for you to consider it an eyesore on one part of the site, but have it implemented in other parts; while at the same time think it's fine on mobile versions but not on desktop. This is a minor gripe, but you're asking for suggestions and all the little things are insignificant alone, but may add up to a better experience overall, so keep that in mind.

    I agree with you that this is simply a "nice to have" thing, but again, it can all add up. As I said, I was only comparing the desktop views that you posted (kinda counter-intuitive to post those as your reference points for suggestions when you state that 70% of users don't use that view in the first place). "It would introduce inconsistencies across the platforms", yet the argument you just made was re-enforcing that there should be inconsistencies across the platforms for the spacers? You are arguing both for and against the same kind of concept here.

    As far as the overall look, I believe you misunderstood me. I stated "I think we could keep a lot of the clean new looks of 3.0 and some of the helpful functionality improvements while also "reverting" back to the simplicity and intuitiveness of 2.0." I then repeatedly complimented the overall newer theme of the site throughout my post. I even posted that the theme could be considered a "Pro" for this specific part of the site we are discussing, there were just a few minor adjustments that I suggested to make. I very well like the overall look and design of the new site theme.

    You are being very general with these comments right here. You cannot group every suggestion together, because at face value, they appear to contradict like you are saying. However, everything is not weighted the same. Adding a very thin spacer (to make it consistent with everything else and appear more organized) and a tiny "views" piece of text that takes up essentially no space, is not at all contradictory to wanting to remove unnecessary portions of the site that take up huge amount of space. My overall argument is to trim the fat and dumb things down, but that does not mean that the suggested changes need to only involve removing things. Replacing certain things with other things is also a very reasonable request.

    Completely agree that it'd be tbd if it'd be a good, bad, or trivial thing. What I know is that things aren't up to par if you're coming to us asking for help, meaning changes need to be made, and we won't know if they are good or bad until we give them a try. It's a trial and error kind of thing that needs to be tested out, just as everything does. And that ties into my point I made about how the 3.0 homepage was a decent concept, theoretically it sounded nice, but it didn't end up "connecting" like it was anticipated. We tried it, it apparently didn't work, so rather than just sticking with it, we need to make changes until we get it to the point that a majority can agree works best. I understand wanting to be consistent with everything else, but again, all these things should be weighted differently. The reply box, pagination, etc are core functional pieces to basis of the forum. Tags are not a core function, but rather a lesser tool that assists in the organization of the site. Not to say that they aren't important, but not nearly as important as something as such as a reply button. That's why some threads have tags and some don't, it isn't necessary, but it can be helpful. You can still stick with the blue color scheme so it is consistent with the rest of the site, changing it to the outline will not make it inconsistent, just not EXACTLY identical to everything else (which in my opinion would be a good thing). At the end of the day, it is a minimal thing, just as the spacer and views suggestions were (hence why I had grouped them all together in one bullet point about possible improvements to the theme. None of these things will make or break the site, but a combination of all of them could be somewhat of an improvement, which I think is better than nothing at all.

    1. Giving a wayyy larger view of the activity of the forum with more detail is not necessarily a beneficial thing. Yes I agree with you that 3.0 does this more than 2.0, but as I had stated in my previous post, it's extremely intrusive and bogs down the whole experience with content that the user may not be interested. It forces the activity (from all over the wide variety of topics discussed on this site) down your throat. All people have specific different interests and topics they want to come here to discuss. They come here to discuss those particular topics, and may have interest in reading a bit about a few others; but I can guarantee there is not a single person who is interested in every single thread that is posted on this site. To have to scan through all the bs to find something that pertains particularly to my interests is a complete turn-off of the site. 2.0 gave you a preview or glimpse of what was going on around the site, but it didn't come at the cost of easily seeing the things you are mainly interested in.
    2. It may be "easier" in some instances such as being more easily accessible, but again, the concept is not as intuitive or "easy" as 2.0. Now you may be referring to the mobile view at this point instead of the desktop, I'm not entirely sure, but again, my arguments were all made specifically in regards to the desktop version, which could possibly apply to the mobile version (but I'm not entirely sure).

    I know the concept did catch on for a few people, I'm not claiming that not a single person could understand it. Just talking about the general majority struggled to grasp it for whatever reason. I appreciate you acknowledging this, but it does come off as a bit defensive. We're trying to figure out how to improve the site overall for a majority of the users. It should go without needing to be said that obviously not every single person has the same viewpoint and of course there will be some who like things others don't, as you said, you cannot please every individual person. Why throw in arguments in support of something that you acknowledge being viewpoints of the few.

    Reverting back to the 2.0 view on the homepage shouldn't be an "option". Again, at the end of the day you are trying to improve the site for the majority so the site can grow. Take the leap and make the full change. No more "options". You're trying to do exactly what you've been saying can't be done, and that is "please everyone". Yes switching back to the 2.0 homepage may piss off the few minority who prefer the newer version (including yourself), but it will be beneficial for the majority and be the thing that grows the site. Don't try to structure the "reverted" homepage as a different themed view of 3.0. Make it function like it did before.

    I understand wanting to wait until you get other conceptual ideas in, which you 100% should. But I will reiterate, don't waste your time making it this homepage update as just another "option" for users. Set it as the standard, only way to view the site, and stick with it. This is the homepage of the site. Brand it as such. Make it consistent for every user.
    Again, my comments were solely speaking from the desktop view of the site, especially in regards to the navigation bar and such. The hamburger menu bar on mobile actually seems really useful and nicely done, and functions quite well for navigation throughout the site. Obviously you would need to think of a good concept for how to effectively implement that with the 2.0 homepage concept, I don't have any suggestions for that at the moment to fix the redundancy of that.


    I agree and see now that the scrolling doesn't come into play anymore. It was an issue with the site, isn't much of one anymore. The recent music sxn consolidation definitely helped with this aspect.

    I disagree that the one click comment defeats calling out the navigation piece to begin with. I do agree the small real-estate would not be a deterrent however. As I stated in my previous response, there are definitely some benefits of the navigation bar and I wasn't completely opposed to the idea, but the original way it was implemented (at least on the desktop view) was not effective at all. My issue was the sort of redundancy of having the navigation bar and the 2.0 homepage concept at the same time as they would essentially be doing the same thing, but I'm certain a solution could be made for this. But yes, mobile-wise it makes great sense how it is.

    It's not a terrible concept, but like you said, for whatever reason it was too complex for the users even though it was so simple. Not really sure what to say here.

    Yes it has a use, but not a particularly good one. I didn't think the sidebar should be removed entirely, only from Thread and SXN views. I think it is extremely useful on the homepage given the 2.0 setup. I believe most of the forums and social media platforms implement it into their homepages, but not every single page of the site like it is here. "you wouldn't gain anything from not seeing it", yet you think a thin spacer on a desktop view is an eyesore? Needing to ignore a whole third of the page made up by the sidebar easily constitutes as being an "eyesore". It makes it look messy. It's in the way. You have the navigation bar in place now to easily get people to the different parts of the site right? Why have another? It does exactly what I said earlier about being intrusive and cannibalistic to the thread experience.
    :emoji_thumbsup:
    I've personally never used it (I think it is more for the dedicated user than the casual user), so I don't know all about it, I just made my recommendation by looking at the two comparisons you posted. I definitely see the benefits of it, but it's definitely not the most visually pleasing thing. And if the other stuff is taken out of the sidebar as suggested, it would be kinda odd having just a sidebar that consists of that I think (hence why I suggested moving it somewhere else).
    d--- that's unfortunate, it's definitely not effective in its current state.
    Not true at all. My viewpoint was for the sidebar not being necessary in the SXN and Thread views, I supported the idea of it being on the homepage. I commended the sidebar on the 2.0 homepage and stated several benefits, just offered a few changes.
    I understand it's not the simplest of tasks to complete, but it can certainly be done. It was done quite well already with the 2.0 version. It becomes a whole lot more difficult though when you make all of this an "option". Set up one homepage, not the option to switch between choices, which I've stated multiple times now. Makes all of this much easier. And as I suggested, remove status updates and then it is not longer that much content in the sidebar. Certainly not anymore than what is already present.
    Can't make a comment about this right now as I was only referring to the desktop version of the site. I would need side by side comparisons of the mobile 2.0 and 3.0 homepages to see how they could compare. But at the end of the day I'm sure we could come up with a solution for mobile.
    Again, you can't please everybody. Dealing with complaints is part of the job, even if it can be annoying. At the end of the day if you don't think it is something that is progressing the site, get rid of it. People won't stop coming here simply due to not being able to post a status update. They may not like no longer having that feature, but they'll get over it. h---, let them post a status update that is only visible on their personal page if they want, but keep that s--- off the homepage.

    Finally, I don't see how it is silly to bring up? It is a nuisance and completely counter-intuitive. I understand if this is somehow difficult for coding, but on the surface it seems like an extremely simple fix (though I know with coding that doesn't necessarily mean it actually is). However, Facebook and other sites seem to be able to achieve this sort of thing, so I know it's possible. If you have the ability to ignore all already, why does it have to open a new page with all the notifications instead of keeping me where I am and being cleared? Clicking to go back o the homepage to go to a different section is a completely different ballpark. That is for site navigation, getting from one page to another. You are literally trying to leave where you currently are. Ignoring all means I cannot be bothered with these things. It is literally the entire point of having that option to begin with, to clear the notification and get it out of the way. Right now I could be in a thread I want to read and get dragged into a completely other page full of things I was trying to ignore just to have to go back to where I wanted to be in the first place. I think you played this one down wayyy too much.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
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  19. Nay Nay
    Posts: 482
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    Joined: Feb 15, 2011

    Nay Nay naynaymusic.com

    Jan 28, 2020
    Appreciate the breakdown and everything. The "small potatoes" were exactly that, just minor comments/suggestions that I made (which you seem to have dragged out as if they were major make-or-break suggestions).
    As far as the larger pieces you disagree with: I stand by my statements of removing the sidebar in the thread and sxn views (at the very least the thread views), while I have always supported a sidebar on the homepage. I hope my new comments clarify my reasonings a bit better for you. Part of the navigation bar issue I mentioned was addressed with the music sxn consolidation, and the removal was only a suggestion if an improved/modified version of the navigation bar couldn't be made (if we reverted back to the 2.0 homepage). I very well think we could keep it up top outside of the homepage view the way it is now, just don't know how to address the redundancy of the homepage and the navigation bar (which isn't necessarily a huge issue; just don't want it be used as a reason to support not going back to the 2.0 homepage).
     
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  20. Slyk
    Posts: 8,493
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    Joined: Feb 15, 2011
    Location: Detroit -> Cali

    Slyk God made a prophet.

    Jan 28, 2020
    maybe i'm tired and misreading, but i'm getting a pretty aggressive tone from a large chunk of that. i'll dive into some later, but i gotta remind you that the purpose of this thread wasn't to identify if a line is needed, or to make a box solid or outlined, or if i can avoid a page refresh that occurs once in a rarity -- this needs to be bigger picture of "how can we help grow the site". yes, all the little things can add up, but there's a pretty clear line of what does and doesn't fall into that category here. i thought i did a good job of addressing even those that don't fall into that category without dismissing them entirely, but they are in fact small potatoes and i probably won't circle back on those here rn.
     
    Mar 28, 2024
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